The truth about Chan Wan...

[ciakmull]

A big complicated question about Chan Wan... read it at your own risk...

There are three Chan Wan entries on the db. Their chinese character are not the same but are quite similar. I think they could be the same person. If they're not we have to add the final (number) to distinguish them. According to Hong Kong Filmography Vol. IV, where there's just one Chan Wan credited, the correct chinese name should be the first.

Chan Wan
陳雲
http://www.hkmdb.com/db/people/view.mhtml?id=2228&display_set=eng

Chan Wan
陳芸
http://www.hkmdb.com/db/people/view.mhtml?id=2188&display_set=eng

Chan Wan
陳云
http://www.hkmdb.com/db/people/view.mhtml?id=2406&display_set=eng

The second problem is the fact that Chan Wan used several nicknames during his career, such as Auyeung Man-wai or Lau Cheung-ching.



Au Yeung Man Wai
歐陽文蕙
http://www.hkmdb.com/db/people/view.mhtml?id=2340&display_set=eng

Au Yeung Man Wai
歐陽文慧
http://www.hkmdb.com/db/people/view.mhtml?id=2333&display_set=eng

Lau Cheung Ching
柳長青
http://www.hkmdb.com/db/people/view.mhtml?id=2657&display_set=eng

Here's some scan that could be helpful:




It's not finished here. In an interview for the HKIFF Retrospective Catalogue "Cantonese Star of the Sixties" Chan Wan said he used also another nickname, Chui Gon Ji...



Chui Gon Ji
余幹之
http://www.hkmdb.com/db/people/view.mhtml?id=2173&display_set=eng

HK Filmography Vol. IV scan:


Interview scan:


From the same source it seems that at least another movie should be credited to him as director:

Colourful Youth (1966)
彩色青春
http://www.hkmdb.com/db/movies/view.mhtml?id=4563&display_set=eng

See here:







What do you think about all this mess?

[calros]

I think you had a good time searching different sources about this man.
It's a very funny mess, all of this. And in the HKMDb we made worse that topic.

1) Chan Wan 陳雲 and Chan Wan 陳芸 are different people. 1 is actor and the other writer/director.
In the Chinchanchung HKFA Book they appear as different people, too.
So, I won't merge them.

2) Chan Wan 陳雲 and Chan Wan 陳云 are the same person.
I think the symbol 云 is the "simplie" of 雲 and maybe the editor who put that name mistook the symbols.

If nobody objects in 15 days, I will merge them.

3) Au Yeung Man Wai 歐陽文蕙 and Au Yeung Man Wai
歐陽文慧 are the same person.
I think it's a similar case. I think the symbol 蕙 is not correct.
And they are Chan Wan, of course.

If nobody objects in 15 days, I will merge them.

4) Also I think Lau Cheung Ching 柳長青 is Chan Wan, too.
The same source seems confirm it.

If nobody objects in 15 days, I will merge them.

5) Also you are right, and your proofs seem correct and well contrasted,
when you say that Chui Gon Ji 余幹之 is a shared pen name.

But I think I can not merge a shared pen name of two writers.
I only can clear that topic in their bio. Do you agree?

6) Also I think Chui Hiu 余河 is the 4th pen name of Chan.
The same source seems confirm it.

If nobody objects in 15 days, I will merge them.

It's usual that one writer use 1 or 2 pen names,
but this man has beaten all the records...

Tomorrow I'll add the names (of your credits scans) who I can to the Db,
because now are 00:00 and I'll go to sleep.

[dleedlee]

Nice detective work. One suggestion. Rather than merge the names of Chan Wan and Lau Cheung Ching since they are credited under that name, why not use the Links feature? That way the information is linked yet discretely separated. For example, I've linked the Family, Spring, and Autumn films since they are a trilogy. The same options can be used with persons and their pseudonyms.

[calros]

Mr. Dleedlee, do you refer to Chui Gon Ji 余幹之, don't you?

That is, in the Chan Wan entry do a link to Chui Gon Ji,
and in the Lo Dun entry do a link to Chui Gon Ji, too.

If you are saying this, I agreed.
It's a good idea because people usually do not watch the bios...

If you are saying another thing please explain your idea with easy words because my english is not good.

-----------------------------------------------------

"The Next Generation"
Added 2 prod. (new names), story and 2 actors.

"Broken-Zither Bower"
Added 2 prod., editor, photo and 2 actors. I don't know the chinese symbols of the music.

"In the Face of Demolition"
Added prod. and editor. I don't know the chinese symbols of the music.

[dleedlee]

Yes, mainly I was recommending the method. If a person has credit under multiple names, rather than lose one of the names, use the Links feature to cross reference the names and pseudonyms and not to physically change the name, e.g. Au Yeung Man Wei and Leung Cheung Ching's credits should remain under that name and not changed to 'Chan Wan' (if I understood the original analysis correctly). I hope that makes sense.

[calros]

Now I think I am lost.

Are you telling me that we must having (for example) "Sammo Hung" separated from "Chu Yuen Lung" (his alias as action director) and "link" both names?

... And "Ho Lan-San" separated from "Tadashi Nishimoto" and from "Ni Mengdon" and only "link" the three names?

... And "Jackie Chan" separated from "Chen Yuen Lung" (his former artistic name) and "link" both names?

Is that what you mean

[dleedlee]

Are you telling me that we must having (for example) "Sammo Hung" separated from "Chu Yuen Lung" (his alias as action director) and "link" both names?

Is that what you mean

Yes, I'm suggesting that as an option, where appropriate. For Sammo and Jackie, no. But in the case of someone, generally less famous, yes. If I was watching a film and saw the credits for Au Yeung Man Wai, would I necessarily know it was Chan Wan? If I wanted to search in the db, what would I do, search for Au Yeung Man Wai, hopefully see the cross reference link and learn that he also has credits as Chan Wan. Otherwise, I might question the validity if I knew the credit was Au Yeung Man Wai's but saw Chan Wan's name.

The HKFA Filmograhpies frequently do the same. That was how I learned that an actress used one name for her Cantonese films and a totally different one in her Mandarin career. Her name escapes me, but if/when I come across her in the db, I would see that and find her separate credits under two names and a link between the two. And it doesn't depend on me forever knowing it because it's in the db. There are many instances of this in the Filmographies.

All I'm saying is it can be used selectively as an additional tool. I can't specify any hard rule and I'm not saying you _must_ do so. It's not for me to say, in any case. But it seems appropriate in this situation, and logical.

[calros]

Mr. Dleedlee, I think we will have another combat today.

You are saying "separate the names if they are not famous". Who decides who is a famous name and who is not? I know perfectly that "Lola Forner" is "Maria Delores Forner" because she was a famous star here, but I'm sure you do not know who is she...

The same case about "Tadashi Nishimoto". He was one of the most famous and reputed cinematographers in Japan (Mr. Ciakmull can prove it) but I think the younger generations must think he is a manga author or something like that.

I only have seen 2 films of Stephen Chow So, for me, he is an absolute unknown man.

I think is better list the alias of a name in each entry. If you search "Au Yeung Man Wai", the engine will bear you to the "Chan Wan" entry where you will find this alias and other 4 names more...

I thought you said that we have to "link" the names when, for example (and this is the perfect case) one writer used a "shared pen name" with another writer and I can not merge them. In that concrete case, I think your idea is THE MOST PERFECT SOLUTION. But in the rest of the cases, I think it is not.

[Harlock]

personally i dont think we should separate same actor, alias is the best solution, but its just my suggestion

[dleedlee]

Mr. Dleedlee, I think we will have another combat today.

You are saying "separate the names if they are not famous". Who decides who is a famous name and who is not? I know perfectly that "Lola Forner" is "Maria Delores Forner" because she was a famous star here, but I'm sure you do not know who is she...

The same case about "Tadashi Nishimoto". He was one of the most famous and reputed cinematographers in Japan (Mr. Ciakmull can prove it) but I think the younger generations must think he is a manga author or something like that.

I only have seen 2 films of Stephen Chow So, for me, he is an absolute unknown man.

I think is better list the alias of a name in each entry. If you search "Au Yeung Man Wai", the engine will bear you to the "Chan Wan" entry where you will find this alias and other 4 names more...

I thought you said that we have to "link" the names when, for example (and this is the perfect case) one writer used a "shared pen name" with another writer and I can not merge them. In that concrete case, I think your idea is THE MOST PERFECT SOLUTION. But in the rest of the cases, I think it is not.

Well, I think your examples are not quite the same.
1. Lola/Delores Forner are clearly alternate or variants of same name
analogy: Caroline Kennedy => Kay Kennedy

2. Tadashi Nishimoto / Ho-Lan San - not sure but are the two names he used in two different countries? Alias in true sense seems to apply here.
analogy might be Christopher Doyle => Do Hoh Fung

3. Au Yeung Man Wai/Chan Wan - pseduonyms, for sure. Same country, different name.
analogy: Frank Witherspoon => Michael Corleone

...more later with examples

[Harlock]

what about the wellson chin/ chin leung case ? http://www.hkmdb.com/db/people/view.mhtml?id=6196&display_set=eng

http://hkmdb.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?p=38350&highlight=chin+leung#38350

chin leung weas used more than wellson chin

[calros]

If we do as you say, Mr. Dleedlee, this Database will be the only one in the world which have this system.
Internet Movie Database, Japanese Novie Database, Anime News Network, Bollywood Movie Database, Japanese Horror Movie Database, use "my" system...

Good example, Mr. Chinchanchung

------------------------------------------

Changing topic. You are from the USA, Mr. Dleedlee. So you speak english in your home (i hope):
It's "I can not" or "I can't not"?

[dleedlee]

what about the wellson chin/ chin leung case ? http://www.hkmdb.com/db/people/view.mhtml?id=6196&display_set=eng

http://hkmdb.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?p=38350&highlight=chin+leung#38350

chin leung weas used more than wellson chin

Again, not a direct example. He changed his familiar name correct?
So, an analogous example would be Harry Potter => Tommy "Butch" Potter. Analogies also now added above.

As to what other databases do, you know what they say about not being the lead dog! Besides, I didn't dream this up alone. Again, I will cite the HKFA as evidence.

Also, to complicate matters, it seems like nothing for HK stars to change their familiar name.

calros - It could be either, "I cannot" or "I can't not". The second would mean the exact opposite of the first, being a double negative. So, you probably want the first, more common phrasing.

[calros]

Thanks for your lesson.

Well, I hope this work.

This is a shot of the JMDb. Director Rin Tarô signed his first films as "Hayashi Shigeyuki". The two names are listed together, without link:


This is a shot of the JHMDb- Swordplay star Wakayama Tomisaburô appeared in his first 30 films as "Jô Kenzaburô" :



This is a shot of the IMDb. Spanish director Jesús Franco used more than 50 names during his career:






According to your theory, we will have to put 50 separate links for this man...

[calros]

I quoted the case of the other Dbs for other reason.
How many editors must have each one of these databases?
10 at less. So, in total, 50 editors who accepted the same procedure of name entry.
And 50 persons are smarter than you... (or, better said, than you and me together...).

That entry procedure is commonly observed (or universal) on all the things.
For example: imagine you are reading a novel, "American Jap", and you think...
"Oh, what a terrific novel, I will search more info about its author (Tani Joji) in my Encyclopaedia".
And you get your encyclopaedia [I'm talking about your encyclopaedia in "book of paper" format]
and find this entry:
Tani, Joji. See > Hayashi, Fubo.

and nothing more.

You will have to get another volume of your encyclopaedia and go to a new entry, Hayashi, Fubo.
Here you will find that Hayashi wrote a lot of novels,
and "American Jap" in particular with the pen name of "Tani Joji".

That is, you did not find the "American Jap" in the "Tani, Joji" entry,
but in the "Hayashi, Fubo" entry, where they explained all his life and works.

So, in the HKMDb we will have to do the same thing:
A "mother-entry" with the name of "Chan Wan" and all his life and miracles,
and all his pen names.

If you search the film "Broken-Zither Bower"
and want to know more about its writer Au Yeung Man Wai,
you will click on this name and you will find "Chan Wan",
all his pen names and all of his films.
But you won't want to see FIVE separated (although linked)
different filmographies of his career...

But, one more time, if another person agreed with you,
I will accept your procedure and will keep separated (although linked) the filmographies.

[dleedlee]

re: Jesus Franco. Again I do not accept that as an analogous example. That is an extreme example. I don't know his professional details, but it seems like he chose a new name for each film. His situation is more like a budding porn actress.

In the Tani, Joji, case, yes I would like to see both the title listing AND 'see Hayashi, Fubo'.

As to the imdb itself, it probably has richer features than our own hkmdb and offers the ability to add additional related information on cast and films. I'm not sure the hkmdb is as fully featured.

And lest you mistake what I said, I repeat:
"All I'm saying is it can be used selectively as an additional tool. I can't specify any hard rule and I'm not saying you _must_ do so. It's not for me to say, in any case. But it seems appropriate in this situation, and logical."
I was offereing a simple suggestion, which you reject. Then, so be it.

I think your solution is simpler but not as robust. It is like a wheel vs a gear.

My actual concern, is it obscures the next logical questions that would be asked, Why did the person have mulitple names? Which films were made under one name versus the other name? For instance, the actress who used one for Mandarin films and one for Cantonese films. Another is the American case of the those writers and directors blacklisted during the 1950's because of the Cold War. To continue working many had to use psedonyms. I wouldn't know to even ask the question possibly if I didn't know a little of that history.

If you search the film "Broken-Zither Bower"
and want to know more about its writer Au Yeung Man Wai,
you will click on this name and you will find "Chan Wan",
all his pen names and all of his films.

But will I know which films he made under which names?
My sole basis for the view I hold is to maintain integrity of the data and not lose information that potentially could be used for further analysis and research. That's essentially where I'm coming form. Of course, you can do whatever you like, but my position remains steadfast until it can demonstrated that information is not being lost. If we were doing something important like cancer research, this would matter a great deal.

This horse is now ready for delivery to the glue factory.

[calros]

Jesus Franco. Again I do not accept that as an analogous example. That is an extreme example. I don't know his professional details, but it seems like he chose a new name for each film. His situation is more like a budding porn actress.

Jesus Franco is a extreme case but VERY SIMILAR to Chan Wan. Like Chan, Jesus wrote and directed a lot of films with several pseudonims. Obviously you "don't know his professional details". It's not that he chose a new name for each film... but he did more than 150 films (and some of them in different international versions)... Actually he used only about 10 habitual pen names... a few more than Chan.

In the Tani, Joji, case, yes I would like to see both the title listing AND 'see Hayashi, Fubo'.

New error. Because actually Hayashi Fubo is a pseudonim, too. And he has another one, "Maki Itsuma". So you would have to get THREE VOLUMES of your encyclopaedia to know all his work. Or you prefer to know ONLY A THIRD PART OF HIS BIO?

As to the imdb itself, it probably has richer features than our own hkmdb and offers the ability to add additional related information on cast and films. I'm not sure the hkmdb is as fully featured.

I AGREED!

Which films were made under one name versus the other name? (...) But will I know which films he made under which names?

But that same case is valid for Jackie Chan and Sammo Hung- Why Sammo signed his first choreographer credits with another name? And which films of Jackie are signed as "Chen Yuen Lung" and which as Jackie?
We are either all moors or either all christians.

Another is the American case of the those writers and directors blacklisted during the 1950's because of the Cold War.

Dalton Trumbo used three pen names during the witch-hunt. So, according to you, we would have to put FOUR ENTRIES of him in the Db. It's practical for anybody who want to know his works? I think is clear enough comment that topic in his bio.

"All I'm saying is it can be used selectively as an additional tool. I can't specify any hard rule and I'm not saying you _must_ do so.

That's not the problem. The problem is I MUST CONVINCE YOU that my system is the good one. If you follow your rules and I follow mines, some entries will be in your way and others in my way. And worse, later I can re-do your work in my style or viceversa.
We have to be uniform.

[ciakmull]

I don't know which of the two solutions could be the better one. But I think we have to use only one criterion for all the entries, both minor or important ones. Personally I prefer the Carlos solution, it's simplier, but if we do as dleedlee suggests we could have more accurate infos on db. I cannot decide... so I agree with the majority...

[ciakmull]

Chan Wan, the "director with a thousand names", strikes back! I think I found another nickname he used:

Chun Man To
秦晚濤
http://www.hkmdb.com/db/people/view.mhtml?id=3412&display_set=eng



Also HK Filmography file (see entry no. 5053) seems to confirm my suspect.

[ciakmull]

If you search in the db for Jeff Lau you'll have two results, Jeff Lau Chun-wai and Kay On, because in this second entry there's the name Jeff Lau (pseudonym) as alias. Could be this a third possible solution to the problem we are discussing? It's simplier (and more immediate) than the link suggestion and it reports correctly every name used in each movie.

http://www.hkmdb.com/db/people/view.mhtml?id=7020&display_set=eng
http://www.hkmdb.com/db/people/view.mhtml?id=9061&display_set=eng

[calros]

I don't think so.

Your solution is very similar to Mr. Dleedlee's.
He wants to put separate "linked" filmographies but with the "alias explanation" in both.

I personally prefer to see TOGETHER the two filmographies of Jeff Lau. And I want to see TOGETHER the two filmographies of Sammo Hung and the two filmographies of Jackie Chan.

But if your post means that you agreed with Mr. Dleedlee, OK, he won and I lose. I will "link" the pen names of Chan Wan in 15 days.

And now I will have to separate again Yau Nai-Hoi from A Hoi (and link both names)...

[ciakmull]

No, please wait, you misunderstood me... I don't like so much the link solution, it will be difficult for a non expert reader to reach all the filmographies. As you can see from my previous post I cannot decide which solution could be the best one, your is the simplier and the more immediate. We have to discuss it more and more before decide the right way to do. And there's also "chinchanchung" who agrees with you. As I've said before, I'm with the majority...

[calros]

OK, OK, i will wait, maybe I misunderstood you...

Mr. Chinchanchung agrees with me but I'm afraid Mr. Dleedlee may think he does it because I add the 95 % of his suggestions...

I would prefer also the opinion of a veteran or editor... who is the person who at any rate add the info...

Of course your opinion and Mr. Chinchanchung's are important too!

--------------------------------------------

checked that new pen name of Chan Wan .
I'm sorry for Jesus, because I think he had the world record.

But i'm waiting yet to anybody more who says something.

I took advantage of your scan to add several names more (excepting the producer: the program continues broken).

[dleedlee]

Naw, I think ciakmull agrees with me, he just doesn't know it.
...yet!

Does anyone know why Chan Wan has so many names? I quickly reread the interview with him in one of the HKIFF publications but I don't think he addressed it did he?

[ciakmull]

I agree with Carlos, it's you editors who have to decide this question. Maybe you should ask the opinion of Ryan or send private messages to the other editors and administrators to see what they think about it. If we chose Carlos idea we have to merge, e.g., Jeff Lau and Kay On, and in effect I don't know if this is a good solution. But we have to link in some way the pseudonyms of the same persons, and we have to use just one method for all the entries.

Back to the topic: I think there's no problem in merging the two Chan Wan and the two Au Yeung Man Wai.

I read again Chan Wan's interview and there's no useful info about his continue changing of name. Maybe it's a contract problem and he cannot work for different studios under his name.

[calros]

I'm afraid the rest of the editors don't give a damn that topic , but I'll ask them privately, as you suggest.

I you are so interested in knowing what name used Chan in each film, we can put all his separate filmographies in his "Biography" entry, as trivia. If later we found another credit about him, just we have to remember put it in the filmo entry, and in the bio entry with his corresponding pseudonym.

[williamwan]

Carlos,

I agreed with you. It wd keep thing simple and made searching easier. One page of Chan Wan wd tell all about his craze for names and his life work. We shd try to consolidate these different names.

[williamwan]

I agreed with Carlos that we shd merge the name so that we present all the datas under one page. It is simplier and data integrity will not be affected. Reader wd prefer consolidated information rather than link here and there.

However, I feel that the final say in any issue rest with Ryan. Perhap he cd check with all the editors for their inputs before coming to a decision. There cd be technical constraint. Checking with editors wd highlight the issue to them and, if a decision is reached, for their follow-up.

[calros]

I have received PM of 2 reputed editors more. One says "I can only suggest that the same person, duplicated entries, for whatever, reason are merged and the one that is different should remain independent. I can only support your changes as I do not read Chinese."
And the other "I believe we should MERGE all the entries...it just makes too much sense."

The majority of the world in my side. If anyone more has anything to say against my merge, speak now or forever hold your peace.

In 15 days I will merge all the Chan Wans.

[MrBooth]

Sorry I'm a bit late, but I agree with Calros' system - only one entry should exist for one person (somebody should merge Jeff Lau & Kay On really!).