Per Fatal Love (1988)
http://hkmdb.com/db/movies/view.mhtml?i ... ay_set=eng

I am curious as to what the below credit implies in relation to the film? We have Benny Chan listed as an "executive director" -- here's his screen credit:



And the reason I bring this up is that if he was infact the film's "acting" director, then this would be his first screen credit as a director (two years prior to his generally accepted debut with "A Moment Of Romance"). My hypothesis comes from some reading I did over the weekend (a two part interview with Ringo Lam in [now defunct] Australian cult film magazine "Fatal Visions" circa 1994), as I discovered that Ringo Lam's first directorial effort ("Esprit D'Amour") was actually one where he was brought in to complete an unfinished film...after Cinema City head Karl Maka sacked the existing director, Leung Po Chi! If Maka had had issues with Leung on prior shoots and, "Fatal Love" being a Cinema City production, similar creative differences arose herein -- maybe Benny Chan was the actual director of this film?

HK film productions are notorious for NOT fully crediting a film's direction team in the instance where one well-known director was hired but later sacked or left the project for whatever reason. Neither Eric Tsang or Stanley Kwan were credited for their work on "Armour Of God" nor Johnnie To on its sequel, and Lau Kar Leung retains sole director's credit for "Drunken Master 2" though it's a well known fact that he and Jackie Chan clashed on styles and Chan directed most of the film.

Anyway, this is one of the few times in memory that I can recall having seen an "Acting Director" credit precede the accredited director billing. Anyone have any ideas? The film certainly looks and sounds exactly like a Benny Chan film would have circa the era (some of it bears a striking similarity to Chan's later "Moment Of Romance").

Mike

As Mr. Abbot found little time ago , the acting or "executive director" is the TRUE director of the movie. The "credited director" only supervises the film.

The true director of the movies "directed" by Jackie Chan in his Golden Era (1984-94) was usually Chen Chi-Hwa.

Ahhh...thanks for clarifying that the Acting Director is the same as the Executive/Associate director. That makes a world of sense now.

Per Wong Jing, it has often been said to simply look at the associate/executive director credits to ascertain who actually directed his films (which is why I'll always credit the majority of RETURN TO A BETTER TOMORROW to Raymond Yip and Aman Chang); a former associate was on the set of HIGH RISK, when it was shot, and literally amazed to see Wong Jing wandering around behind the camera with a racing guide in his hand...while Corey Yuen directed near everything that was going on in front of the cameras!

Per Chen Chi Wah...yes, I have known about Mr. Chen for a long, long time. It's actually claimed that Chen can mimic the styles of near any director, such is his talent -- after Jet Li dropped out of CRIME STORY and Jackie Chan stepped in, Kirk Wong was also (allegedly) removed as director as well. Then Chan brought in Chen, and Chen was able to mimic Wong's style, as present in the finished material, sufficiently enough to complete the film (it's claimed that Chen directed as much as 80% of the finished film). The irony is -- Kirk Wong was offered his first American feature (THE BIG HIT) on the strength of "his" work on CRIME STORY...hahaha.

Anyway, I can hear my bed calling me...gotta scoot! And thanks for the confirmation.
Mike

Wow!

This thread, short as it is at this point, has been a real eye-opener. Over the years I've seen a smattering of these "associate director" and "executive director" credits in Hong Kong movies and always assumed them to be some sort of co-director arrangement, which I suppose, in a sense, they are, although the "director" commonly given last place in the opening credits or on the posters and video sleeves (domestically and internationally), and especially in the case of Wong Jing, would appear to be more of an "overseer" on the set, as Carlos mentions, making sure that the footage fits a certain "style."

So are you guys saying that most of Jackie Chan's 84-94 directorial output was actually directed by Chen Chi-hwa in the style of Jackie Chan? Does this include a film like Drunken Master 2 where Jackie "took over" the film from Lau Kar-leung? Does (or did) this practise simply free name directors up to work on more projects in an industry that, particularly in its heydey, needed to crank out product at a blistering clip? When someone DOES receive an on-screen associate or executive director credit, is that then a reasonable sign that that person likely did most of the hands-on directing?

And finally, is this practise specific to the Hong Kong film industry? It certainly sounds like a unique practise that could only be borne of necessity in a busy film industry like Hong Kong's (or perhaps India's).

Another boost for the suggestion of being able to add a director as [uncredited] ? With a note field for attribution, of couse.

Brian Thibodeau wrote:a) So are you guys saying that most of Jackie Chan's 84-94 directorial output was actually directed by Chen Chi-hwa in the style of Jackie Chan?

b) Does this include a film like Drunken Master 2 where Jackie "took over" the film from Lau Kar-leung?

c)Does (or did) this practise simply free name directors up to work on more projects in an industry that, particularly in its heydey, needed to crank out product at a blistering clip?

d)When someone DOES receive an on-screen associate or executive director credit, is that then a reasonable sign that that person likely did most of the hands-on directing?

Hey Brian,

Step by step, and in answer to your questions:

a) From what I understand, and was informed by someone with direct contact with the HK film industry circa late nineties (we've long since lost touch), Chen Chi Wah is Taiwanese and his relationship with Jackie can find its origins as far back as Chan's Taiwanese productions. From what I was told, Chen is a kind of "fixer-upper" (much like Sammo Hung, which I'll get to shortly) and was frequently brought in either to finish off a difficult shoot, or oversee production when problems begin to set in. I believe he directed as much as 80% of CRIME STORY, and had some involvement with the PROJECT A and ARMOUR OF GOD films -- beyond that I can't help any further as to what he worked on. Suffice to say, Tony Ching Siu Tung didn't receive a very large credit for taking on board the major role in the shooting of Wong Jing's CITY HUNTER adaptation with Chan (the notorious film that forged a large rift between Wong and Chan).

b) Once again, from what I read at the time, Chan himself actually directed the lion's share of DRUNKEN MASTER II - Lau Kar Leung's "traditional" style of martial arts direction clashed severely with what Jackie was wanting of the film (faster and more intense than flowery and traditionally choreographed). Though the two clashed, Chan took no credit as director for the finished work and Lau received full credit -- even though maybe only 30 or 40% of the material he shot remains in the completed film.

c) Sort of. It's more about the financial side of things and that old chestnut "creative differences". From what I've read, directors can only work on so many features in any given financial year, hence attribution or non-attribution for certain projects. Johnnie To claimed not long ago that it was actually he who directed the two Milkyway productions EXPECT THE UNEXPECTED and THE LONGEST NITE, but associate director Patrick Yau was given screen credit due to the number of films To had his name attached to as both director and producer that year (1998). Additionally, in a print interview from some time ago Ringo Lam claimed part authorship of A MOMENT OF ROMANCE along with To, however is was "debuting" director Benny Chan that received full credit. And sometimes, things just don't work out: cases in point -

1. Tsui Hark produced THE BIG HEAT, and Andrew Kam and Johnnie To were credited as directors; however, interviews with Tsui noted the involvement of a third (unnamed) director who left the project early and, after he became dissatisfied with the work both Kam and To were undertaking, Tsui finished the piece without credit.

2. Likewise, Sammo Hung's director's credit on THE MOON WARRIORS is really just that of a supervisory one, as Hung was brought in to complete the film after all other avenues were exhausted (due to his work ethic and ability to take charge of troubled projects). The film was commenced as husband and wife team of Alex Law and Mabel Cheung's first foray into wuxia filmmaking, but the pair (also the screenwriters) lost confidence in their abilities to deliver a period fantasy piece, as it was outside their realm of the usual comfort zone (straight dramas). Corey Yuen was brought in at some point during filming to take charge, but I believe he and existing action choreographer Tony Ching clashed over stylistic choices. At that point, Andy Lau's company Teamwork turned to Sammo to oversee and wrap-up the production as well as post-production. You can kind of spot who did what in the final film...but sometimes the lines blur.

3. As previously mentioned, Cinema City boss Karl Maka dumped ESPRIT D'AMOUR's director, Leung Po Chi, when their working relationship became strained and Ringo Lam scored his first cinematic directing job (albeit as "completion director").

d) In most cases, the answer is going to be yes. However, HK does not operate in the same working fashion as Hollywood productions, where a director is virtually omniscient. You can have many directors, specialised in a variety of roles, all acting as director on the one film - usually the "dramatic" director (who directs the actors' performances) will gain full credit; but you can also have working an action director, stunt director, dance director, musical director and so on. Each has their own place and each is afforded their own respective role on the filmmaking team (eg: when the drama director has finished shooting the actors emoting in the morning, the action director will come in and take over shooting for the afternoon). If you can, try to track down reports about the Pang Brothers' first American film THE MESSENGERS (due soon); the American actors working on the film were stunned at the way the brothers work - one day one brother directs, while the other edits and oversees filming...the next day they switch caps! I was quite amazed when I read that, and it really displays the symmetry in which these people are used to working.

Lastly, I don't really see any useful purpose in crediting an associate/executive/assistant/acting director in the main director's field in the database (especially as "uncredited"), when they have already been listed in the database entries under their rightful role. In the case of a primary (or "supervising") director being given main accreditation, and the secondary directors being billed per their involvement already, additional accreditation is just doubling up information and misleading potential readers of the database. Plus, in some cases, there is no solid proof of uncredited authorship of a work, as the information has been imparted as hearsay or gossip, related in confidence at an industry level, or is common knowledge yet determined to remain an "open secret" with the supervisory individual retaining full authorship. Like the old saying goes, if it ain't broke...don't try to fix it.

Regards,
Mike

Mike

Thanks for the info. I like having additional info like this for my own reviews, but unfortunately don't always have the resources available to me in my city to track them down. You've been a great help.

I'm thinking the information in your last post would also make a decent column. I don't have power over these things, but there's been talk lately about various threads being highlighted on the front page, but within many of the ones suggested, I think there's some lengthy replies on various subjects from various people that could be reworked by the authors into some nice little columns.

Just a thought. Thanks again for all the info. I might just go and augment some of my unpublished reviews.