Do Chinese people find Chinese horror movies scary?

[Brian Thibodeau]

As I'm not Chinese, but have seen many Chinese horror movies in recent months, I'm often left wondering what, exactly is supposed to be so scary about them. I suspect as a westerner, I'm probably missing something, or have simply been weened on the more precise construction of the American horror movie, where much more stock is placed in the ability to "jolt" an audience via any number of cheap scares and music stings and, often, a genuine buildup of suspense, at least by “western” standards.

Thus, I've generally been of the impression that if there's anything truly scary about Hong Kong horror movies, it must be in the concept rather than the execution. Time and again, films like the TROUBLESOME NIGHT series, ESPRIT D'AMOUR, TIL DEATH DO US LAUGH, NIGHTMARES IN PRECINCT 7, the various VAMPIRE films, the WICKED GHOST movies, and many, many others are reviewed on websites by gweilos who, if they give them any recommendation at all, do so by adding a caveat like "but remember, this is a HK horror movie, so don't expect any real scares."

Now, having seen the movies namechecked above, plus dozens of others in recent months, I can’t help but think many reviewers - and indeed myself - are missing something that is inherently rather than explicitly chilling about these films. I’m just searching out opinions of others on this forum - Asians and gweilos alike - in helping me better appreciate the Hong Kong horror movie, or write much of it off as the derivative, unscary trifle it’s so often accused of being.

I’m somewhat familiar with Chinese religions, superstitions and folklore - to be honest, you nearly have to be to even attempt to approach many HK horror films seriously - so I’m not complete ignorant of the culture when I watch these things. It’s just that the actual construction and pacing of them engender little suspense, and the situations the filmmakers ask us to believe are scary are often decidedly not, again, at least not to a portion of the international audience

So how about it? Do mahjong games in hell or with ghosts (as in STEP INTO THE DARK and HAUNTED MANSION), or with Helena Law Lan in general, represent the epitome of fear to the average Chinese person? Are the comic elements that permeate so many of these films put there because the filmmakers feel the need to remind an audience they perceive to be naive that, after all, it’s just a movie? Do HK audiences routinely ignore these films in theatres (if boxoffice tallies for many of them in the database are anything to go on) because they themselves have become more savvy thanks to rare, but smarter, local fare like INNER SENSES or THE EYE or the usual Japanese and Korean and Hollywood imports? For that matter, why DID it take so long for filmmakers in the former colony to adopt a western-style structure to their horror movies and even make films like INNER SENSES, VISIBLE SECRET, THE EYE, a third of THREE and a teensy handful of others?

Just wondering if I should be accepting the Hong Kong horror genre on the same level as I would accept Roger Corman horrors from the 50s and 60s? You know, cheesy monsters, goofy ghosts, a tired concept, a few chuckles but, ultimately, not enough know-how to execute something truly scary.

What do you guys think?

[Mike Thomason]

I think the thing is that Hong Kong horror is not "horror" as many of us Westerners know it! The main priority therein lies with the way in which many Asian cultures demystify death, making it something to be unafraid of and ultimately just a natural progression of "life" - whereas most Western cultures largely deign death as a frightening finality to live one's live in mortal terror of, thereby giving greater weight to the fear of the unknown and "the end".

In time it became a logicality that Chinese cinema more inherently pokes fun at death and situations usually played out for "cheap scares" in American cinema to me, and I don't think the eventual equation became about Asian viewers being scared (I attended too many horror flicks in cinemas to even contemplate counting now, and Chinese audiences NEVER screamed or acted like Caucasian audiences from my experiences - there was always a healthy dose of laughter). So, no, I don't think it's actually a matter of the films being considered "scary", as the culture dictates something entirely different from what we westerners are accustomed to. It's really a cultural thing...

[MrBooth]

I don't think films like MR. VAMPIRE or A CHINESE GHOST STORY are meant to be horror films, just action/comedy/fantasy/romance films with a supernatural element - HK films have long had a tradition for mixing genres that's rarely seen elsewhere, and setting out just to scare people doesn't seem to have been a significant interest or priority for HK film makers for a long time. The box office success of SIXTH SENSE evidently planted the idea in some heads though, which is when films like THE EYE and INNER SENSES started to crop up.

As for crap like the TROUBLESOME NIGHT films... I think they're just crap :p They're mainly made because it can be done on an incredibly low budget (just the cost of a few green light bulbs ) and tend to make their money back somehow, however crap they are. There's a small but dedicated market for ultra low-budget, scare-free horror films I guess

(btw, one earlier film that did give me some genuine scares was SEVENTH CURSE)

[Mike Thomason]

From what I've been able to gather, the current trend of "serious" horror in Hong Kong stemmed out of the box office success there of Hideo Nakata's RING films.

As for earlier HK horror that gave me the willies...well, CENTIPEDE HORROR certainly had me on the edge of my (cinema) seat and THE RAPE AFTER, DEVIL FETUS and THE IMP all had their moments. And let's not forget Philip Chan's NIGHT CALLER that, before it shifted gears into a more standard police procedural (perhaps thanks to Chan's RHKP background), definitely piled on the tension and edge-of-seat atmosphere. In fact, HK has always had a sideline industry in serious horror; one only needs to look at some of the Shaw titles released through Celestial/Intercontinental to discover the fact (HEX, KILLER SNAKES, GHOST EYES) and has had a history of such.

I think many of us came to the industry during the late eighties/early nineties boom (where the genre wasn't as prevalent), and are only now heading back into history and unearthing many of the region's treasures for the first time. Ironically, I never found THE BLACK MAGIC WITH BUDDHA or FURY OF THE HEAVEN all that "frightening"...

[PAUL MARTINEZ]

White Dragon touches on something prevalent that I wanted to expand on a little. Hong kong films have always kind of been done in specific genre waves. Whether it girls with guns, wire-fu, heroic bloodshed, hopping vampires etc. Japan had seen a steady faltering in thier film market which largely consisted of gangster films. Then movies like Audition, The Ring & Ju-On brought new life to the industry. Other film markets see this and follow suit.

Which brings us to HK films like The Eye. While American studios, too lazy to make anything original, just remake already sucessful films for western audiences. I think we will start seeing a rash of more serious HK made horror movies in the coming year. Until that trend dies and the new one begins. Who knows maybe it'll be cowboy movies.

[Brian Thibodeau]

I think the thing is that Hong Kong horror is not "horror" as many of us Westerners know it! The main priority therein lies with the way in which many Asian cultures demystify death, making it something to be unafraid of and ultimately just a natural progression of "life" - whereas most Western cultures largely deign death as a frightening finality to live one's live in mortal terror of, thereby giving greater weight to the fear of the unknown and "the end".

I think I had similar thoughts in mind when I wrote the original post. My own view of death is not dissimilar from that held, seemingly, my many Asian cultures. I'm not Chinese, nor am I a Buddhist, so I can't speak for the finer points of the Chinese mindset when it comes to both death and, in particular, horror films that deal with the topic. Perhaps some Asian posters might feel inclined to elaborate. I firmly - very firmly - understand that the obsession with death and fear and the afterlife practised by most western religions has been the source down through the ages of much of our collective "western" fear of death and the unknown. Whether of not that is true of Eastern religions, I do not know for sure. I have to think that due to the centuries-old traditions of ancestor worship that exist within such cultures, there must certainly exist a fear of displeasing spirits of the dearly departed and, therefore, a belief that these spirits are in some way able to see and hear and influence what’s going on in the land of the living, which allows, at least theoretically, for a moral value system to remain in place, much like our western concept of a big invisible man in the sky who gives us unconditional love PROVIDED we do the same in return (or else face some nasty punishment when we finally shuffle off the ol’ coil, which is, of course, anything but unconditional).

It’s in this pan-cultural/pan-religious context, whilst largely shedding myself of direct religious affiliation over the years, that I’ve come to appreciate a lot of low-budget Hong Kong horror films, and indeed such films from many other countries. It makes it a holy hell of a lot easier to appreciate another culture’s customs and traditions when you’re less likely to constantly filter them through, or compare them to, your own. Sure, sometimes I prefer the jolt associated with the American masters of the cheap scare to the Hong Kong style of atmospheric supernatural cavortings with Helena Law Lan, but when I watch those films, I try to imagine how the Chinese audience might react based on what I’ve learned about their culture from friends, movies, books, etc. and reset my mental guages accordingly. Obviously, I don’t bring the mental baggage to a HK film that its intended audience does, but after seeing so many of them, it’s impossible NOT to start understanding some of that baggage and, in some ways, finding it preferable to my own.

Good point, Mike, about films like DEVIL FETUS, NIGHT CALLER and THE IMP (assuming you’re talking about the ‘81 film, and not the ‘96, which has merits all it’s own!). I have all three of those and found their lack of bug-eyed farce to be extremely refreshing (NIGHT CALLER is a personal fave). I haven’t seen THE RAPE AFTER, but perhaps I’ll keep an eye out for it. Rape films are another example of a contemporary “horror” genre where some works are very well-written and acted, like RAPE TRAP, while others are pure exploitation and damned proud of it (like the RAPED BY AN ANGEL series). My western values inherently place higher value on the former, while my “eastern” sensibilitites - if I can even say that without sounding like a pretentious ass to our Asian forum contributors - can’t resist the latter. Then again, Western exploitation makes up a huge part of my DVD collection, so I guess my tastes, like any movie fan’s, know no international boundaries. I have nearly all of the Shaw horrors you mentioned - the HEX films, GHOST EYES, KILLER SNAKES and others. Don’t know much about CENTIPEDE HORROR. Safe to assume these movies are low on goofy supporting characters or “funny” chase scenes?

Apropos of nothing, I’ll point out that I just last night watched Wellson Chin’s TEMEGOTCHI and came away less than impressed. I think I “got” all the supernatural mumbo-jumbo therein, but the film, while trying to play it straight, brings absolutely nothing new to the “serious” horror pantheon, thanks in large part to a rather undercooked screenplay by Lawrence Lau.

[odresel]

Aiyeah, I respect you guys and your thoughts, but in truth, I think you are over-intellectualizing all this.

Yes, these cheesy movies DO scare HK people for the simple reason that almost all HK people are to a greater or lesser extent quite superstitious. They may say they are not, or they may say they are "westernized" (whatever that means), or that they are "educated", or even that they are Christians (who are not supposed to believe any of this, right?). Just you try to move their ancestors' graves, and see what happens!

There was a movie called, I think, "My left eye sees ghosts" (but perhaps it was called something else) a couple of years back. The MTR (subway) poster for it here had two scared-looking people on the right side of the picture nervously looking at a shadowy ghost figure in traditional Chinese dress on the left side of the poster (never mind that they were looking to their right....) The posters upset so many people in HK, that they was ordered taken down after a few days and replaced by a poster in which the "ghost" had been removed.

Now that HK film producers can only make money in the Mainland China market, they are having to adapt their films. One thing the censors on the Mainland insist upon is that the good guys have to win. This leads to radically different cuts of films shown in HK and in, say, Shanghai. The other demand is, that HK films cannot contain a lot of superstious elements, and so most directors have left off making these kinds of movies, and the demand for them is being filled by even cheaper companies and film crews. Hence the ultra-low budget "Troublesome Night" series.

By the way, "The Eye" is not really a HK film. I think the screenwriters/directors were from Singapore, and most of it is set in Thailand, which incidentally is the place believed to be the most "spooky" and ghost-ridden by HK people.

[Brian Thibodeau]

Odresel

Your post seems to support some of the hypotheses I put forth in my opening post:

1: “...if there's anything truly scary about Hong Kong horror movies, it must be in the concept rather than the execution.”

2. “I can’t help but think many reviewers - and indeed myself - are missing something that is inherently rather than explicitly chilling about these films.”

3. “I’m somewhat familiar with Chinese religions, superstitions and folklore - to be honest, you nearly have to be to even attempt to approach many HK horror films seriously.”

Additionally, I’m not so sure intellectualizing a subject like this is a bad thing, as it’s often the best way to break down the cultural differences for study, even by an amateur like myself.

Your remarks about Hong Kong people being superstitious is not lost on me. Obviously I don’t live in Hong Kong, but I spend A LOT of time in Canada’s largest Chinese communities in Toronto and am very well aware of the explicit signs of superstition that pepper the landscape. The small shrines to General Kwan (I believe?) would probably be the most obvious indication, but I’ve seen paper scrolls and wall hangings and things with inscriptions to ward off bad luck and evil spirits. In fact, the Chinese seem to have a unique corner on the market for “luck,” which can only point to a deep rooted belief in fate (no coubt anchored in religious notions), which of course is nothing more than handed-down superstition, much like our “western” belief structures, which pepper our own landscapes with an indescribable amount of displays, prescriptions and ritual. The verifiable fact the people the world over simply ACCEPT these things to be true in this supposed age of reason, while outwardly claiming, as you point out, NOT to believe in such silliness, is a sad commentary on how short a distance we’ve really evolved as a species.

Pandering to the mainland is, I suppose, an unfortunate (though no doubt profit-driven) result of the general collapse of the Hong Kong film industry due to American dominance, the handover, piracy and what have you. I’m guessing that despite their communist roots, many mainland Chinese possess their own hidden superstitions, and we’ll probably learn more about such things as the country continues to open up, but as long as the black-and-white reasoning of capitalist-communist power structure insists that movies like INFERNAL AFFAIRS to end with Andy Lau being arrested by a group of hitherto unseen investigators, it may be awhile before we learn just what the popular masses really believe, as opposed to what they are told to believe.

As to Christians not being “supposed to believe any of this, right?”, don’t bet the farm on that. Any person that believes that if you don’t follow prescriptions and rituals set down a mere 2000 years ago by people who may not have existed, claiming that an invisible, unprovable deity will send you down to an invisible, uncharted, realm of pain and suffering (particularly if you do not love him unconditionally) is, in my book, superstitious on a very, very deep level. This is probably one reason supernatural horror movies will never die in “the west.” Even though our culture has been nothing more than an “immigrant” culture since day one, it’s the Judeo-Christian hoodoo that landed here first (not counting, of course, those people from Asian that migrated here much, MUCH earlier, of course!) that largely informs our concepts of fear and horror. As different as the Chinese horror movies may seem on the surface, or in their construction and dramatic momentum, at their core, they’re all the result of (and certainly perpetuate) oftencompletely irrational belief structures.

One could write a book on the subject.

[odresel]

Brian,

All very good points, and yes, there is definitely a book waiting to be written.

Why is it, BTW, that so few books have appeared on HK films and cinema, especially in English? Besides the maddenly-inaccurate "Asian Cult Cinema", the out-of-print "Sex Zen, and Bullet in the Head", and a large collection of Paul Fonoroff's reviews (only going up to 1997 howver), there seems to be nothing.

Slice of Life: Actually, I was in a Starbucks in Kowloon the other day, and a gweilo behind me was chatting intensely with a Hong Kong woman half his age and going on about "Oh, yes, I am SO INTERESTED in semiotics...yadda yadda yadda..." You don't hear this UC-Berkeley undergraduate crap in Hong Kong very often, and I thought, "Who the **** IS this guy?" I turned around and it was, yep, Paul Fonoroff.

[Bearserk]

well, you got a few more books floating around such as :

The essential guide to deadly china dolls
ISBN : 1-89-925202-9

The essential guide to Hong Kong movies
ISBN : 1-899252-00-2

Hong Kong Action Cinema
ISBN : 1-85286-540-7

I can't really speak about how accurate they are as I haven't really checked them out that much.

[dleedlee]

Odds and ends and ramblings:

-For those not already familiar with them, the HKFA and HKIFF publications are excellent sources for books on HK film in English.

-The communists may strive to eliminate superstition (and establish their own cults, previously Mao, and now money, it seems) but they have been around less than a hundred years. Compare that to a few thousand years of prior cultural history.

- Are statues of General Kwan, etc much different than wearing a crucifix around your neck or a statue of the Virgin Mary at home?

-I wonder, if horror is actually a genre in HK or simply a imitation of popular non-native films, commercially driven? Modern horror films, essentially, are graphically visualized films of anxiety, usually represented as death. But if you expand the meaning of 'horror' to 'anxiety' and what represents anxiety to a culture/population, then there could be an HK 'anxiety' genre. From my limited readings and viewings, in the '50s there were a category of anti-feudal melodramas revolving around the fear of being unable to choose one's own husband/wife. There seem to be scores of arranged marriage tragedy films made. Many were also based on older Canto operas with similar themes, others based on 'modern' literature of the '30s. Conversely, another common theme of the time, that of conflict between the countryside and the new urban HK reflects anxiety that old simply country values being replaced by the slick city dwellers. Then, there are the '60s Teddy boys/Ah fei films and the Connie Chan/Josephine Siao musicals films might represent two sides on the same coin, anxiety over social unrest or reassuarance of stability and a better tomorrow. Leaping forward, there is the Triad anxiety and post-1997 Takeover anxiety genre films.

-I love that Fonoroff story. What is currrently doing now? Does he still write reviews for SCMP?

set in Thailand, which incidentally is the place believed to be the most "spooky" and ghost-ridden by HK people

Can someone explain why this is, if true? I've heard the drug smuggling/hopping ghost story (wasn't that Burma?).

[odresel]

Thanks for the references, I will check those books out.

I do think that "horror" as a genre necessarily involves anxiety, but anxiety doesn't always (or even often) involve horror. Is "12 Angry Men" a horror film? Not in my book, but cetainly one is very anxious when watching it. But, whatever your views, this discussion is nonetheless very interesting.

Yes, the proscription of endings where 1. the bad guys win, 2. Chinese people are shown being supersitious, and 3. too much sex (violence is never censored) is a very recent example of stepped-up Mainland censorship. It is a direct result of HK directors moving over in the past 5 years to capture large parts of the Mainland market by filming on the Mainland. Most HK actors are spending a lot of time there, it's the only place they can get enough work now (I get this from my wife, who is an acquaintance of Carrie Ng.)

Thailand: yes, this is the locus of "big magic". Why, I am not really sure. There is a priest in Thailand who is the darling of the movie star/pop star set. They are always flying down there (Eric Tsang is one of the main devotees, and has gotten a lot of others to participate) to get special blessings and so forth. This priest has, BTW, recently predicted that a tsunami-type disaster will hit Hong Kong on the eve of Chinese New Year this year. He's told everyone to stay indoors after 9 PM on that evening (I think 8 February). Watch this space!

[odresel]

Oh yes, Fonoroff: He is still writing for the SCMP, and occasionally for other magazines/newspapers. Haven't seen him in a new film for a long time, however.

[Brian Thibodeau]

Fonoroff's book, At The Hong Kong Movies (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/9622176410/qid=1105366194/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/002-9214253-0290452?v=glance&s=books), while undoubtedly well-written and very often witty, is almost enough to turn the neophyte off Hong Kong cinema before they've even begun! I nearly always disagree with his approach to reviewing a lot of these films, in which one can't help but feel a certain "colonialist" mentality at work, resolutely defining the weaknesses of local product by how they measure up to the cinema of Europe or America while only implicity mentioning films from those countries. Kinda sad, considering all the photos on the cover showing Paul cozying up to the big HK stars and appearing in cameos in a number of films!

Other Hong Kong film books I have:

HONG KONG ACTION CINEMA, by Bey Logan
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0879516631/qid=1105366415/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/002-9214253-0290452?v=glance&s=books. Logan's Book benefits from his having lived in the colony for so long and is generally a great introduction to the form, although it's about seven years old now and therefore out of touch with many recent developments. I believe it's officially out of print, but as you can see by the Amazon.com link, it can be found quite cheaply. I still see it on many new bookshop shelves here in Canada.

CITY ON FIRE, by Lisa Oldham Stokes and Michael Hoover
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1859842038/qid=1105366604/sr=2-3/ref=pd_ka_b_2_3/002-9214253-0290452
This book is often derided for its political approach to analysing Hong Kong cinema, and I'd agree with smoe critics that it does go overboard in spots, but it's probably the only one to explicitly speculate at the Communist vs/ Capitalist underpinnings of the form. Again, they reach pretty far for analogies sometimes, but overall it's an interesting approach.

VIDEOHOUND'S ASIAN DRAGON, by Brian Thomas and several others
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1578591414/qid=1105366787/sr=1-18/ref=sr_1_18/002-9214253-0290452?v=glance&s=books
This is a cumbersome tome with a lot of wasted white space to make it seem more impressive, but it does contain a wealth of OK reviews of Asian cinema. The book is Pan-Asian, but Hong Kong cinema gets the most coverage. The reviews, however, provide far too much synopsis and too little analysis, generally on a three-to-one ratio, if I had to figure it. I've found small errors here and there, but nothing glaring. The book has many entries on Japanese, Korean, Malaysian (some) and Thai cinema, as well as Anime (which already has better volumes devoted to it) and "Asians in USA" movies like Replacement Killers and assorted Jean Claude God Damme movies by Hong Kong directors. Generally recommended only if you can get it used, although few bookstores I've been to actually stock it.

ASIAN POP CINEMA, by Lee Server
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0811821196/qid=1105369390/sr=1-4/ref=sr_1_4/002-9214253-0290452?v=glance&s=books
Good, brief overviews of many different forms of Asian cinema, organized into chapters on Hong Kong, Japan, Korea, Phillipines, Malaysia, Thailand, Vietnam etc. Again, a few years old, so a bit out of date, but a fun read for the beginner looking to expand beyond HK cinema.

HOLLYWOOD EAST: HONG KONG MOVIES AND THE PEOPLE WHO MADE THEM, by Stefan Hammond
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0809225816/qid=1105369575/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/002-9214253-0290452?v=glance&s=books
A good follow-up to SEX & ZEN, but without the heavy-handed hyperbole. A good mix of articles on a variety of subjects: John Woo, Jackie Chan, Johnnie To, Goo Wat jai films, girls with guns movies, horror flicks and "shock cinema", stunts, etc. Another one you can find pretty cheaply!

The following books are out there, but I haven't bought them (yet!)

AT FULL SPEED: HONG KONG CINEMA IN A BORDERLESS WORLD, by Exther C.M. YAU
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0816632359/ref=wl_it_dp/002-9214253-0290452?%5Fencoding=UTF8&coliid=I2VRXGEPDCO6SM&v=glance&colid=3JVYAIE0RDD26

HONG KONG MURDERS, by Kate Whitehead
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0195914880/ref=wl_it_dp/002-9214253-0290452?%5Fencoding=UTF8&coliid=I2F21YGV7Z9VMX&v=glance&colid=3JVYAIE0RDD26
Appropriate to this discussion, this is a well-reviewed book that examines the real-life crime stories that fueled so many Category III sickies like HUMAN PORK CHOP and, I believe, UNTOLD STORY and it's kind.

PLANET HONG KONG: POPULAR CINEMA AND THE ART OF ENTERTAINMENT, by David Bordwell
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0674002148/ref=wl_it_dp/002-9214253-0290452?%5Fencoding=UTF8&coliid=I2OZSXXFSDS3KA&v=glance&colid=3JVYAIE0RDD26

THE HONG KONG FILMOGRAPHY 1977-1997, by John Charles
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0786408421/qid=1105368193/sr=1-3/ref=sr_1_3/002-9214253-0290452?v=glance&s=books
I've read a few reviews from this, but had neither the time that particular day to read more of it, nor the money (the store wanted over $100 CDN for it - and it was NEW!) to purchase it. It seems to combine the litany of complaints you find in Fonoroff's book, and the needlessly lengthy plot synopsis you find in the Videohound guide. The cast, crew, asprect ratios, sound formats, are all handy, but not overly necessary to the rabid fan who just wants to see as much of this stuff as possible before shuffling off the mortal coil. Thankfully, he does include interesting context and background on many of the films. It's referred to, by one Amazon customer as the "Leonard Maltin Film Guide of Hong Kong cinema" but the prohibitive price really keeps it from living up to the comparison. Plus there's WAY more than 1100 Hong Kong movies one could write about, but few have had the time to date!

THE CINEMA OF HONG KONG: HISTORY, ARTS IDENTITY, edited by Poshek Fu and David Desser
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0521776023/qid=1105368193/sr=1-7/ref=sr_1_7/002-9214253-0290452?v=glance&s=books

NEW CHINESE CINEMA: FORMS, IDENTITIES, POLITICS, various editors
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0521776023/qid=1105368193/sr=1-7/ref=sr_1_7/002-9214253-0290452?v=glance&s=books

---------------

[Brian Thibodeau]

-For those not already familiar with them, the HKFA and HKIFF publications are excellent sources for books on HK film in English.

I once tried to purchase a whole bunch of these publications from the HKIFF website, but the shipping costs scotched the deal. Many's the time I wished I knew someone who lived in Hong Kong who could buy them and ship them to me for a more reasonable cost.

- Are statues of General Kwan, etc much different than wearing a crucifix around your neck or a statue of the Virgin Mary at home?

Good point, and one I tried to make earlier in the thread. Although one thing I've noticed in Hong Kong films (as in a handful of American films) is the more pronounced fear OF THE DEAD, rather than an explicit fear OF DEATH. I think Western mythologies (and that's all any of it is, really) claim much of their impact from exploiting (and supposedly comforting) the fear of death. Thus, filmmakers have for ages exploited the Judeo-Christian concepts of an wrathful god, and tempting satan, angels, demons, exorcists, etc., etc, ad nauseum. I supposed Chinese viewers look at some of "our" horror titles with a mix of curiosity, misunderstanding and ridicule, perhaps the same way some uninformed westerners might view Hong Kong "horror" for the first time.

The subject of "anxiety" in horror films and non-horror films is apt here, although its the dramatic thrust of just about all horror films the world over. Plenty of drama can be wrung from the inability of a culture to understand "the other," whatever it deems such an entity to be. The most facsinating example of this, to me, is the treatment of mainlanders in Hong Kong cinema, which seemed to grow nastier as the handover drew near. For a long time in the 50’s and 60’s, they were often treated as ingorant hicks or backwards relatives in Hong Kong cinema, worthy of a few chuckles, but through the 70's , 80's and 90's they grew to be something worse, a threat that I suppose mirrored certain realities. As Hong Kong flourished, and the communist system fell into its virtually pre-ordained decline, mainlanders were strikingly portrayed as a force to be feared, mistrusted, one that would destroy Hong Kong’s livelihood from the inside as they filtered more or less unchecked into the colony in search of a free ride. Films like LONG ARM OF THE LAW and it’s offspring are fairly obvious examples of this phenomena, but my personal favourite, and one that I think represents the irrationality of some Hong Kongers at its most bleak as well as the determination of a faction of mainlanders at their most desperate, is the Johnnie To production INTRUDER from 1997, starring Wu Chien-lien (playing WAAAAY against type), Wayne Lai Yiu-cheung and Moses Chan Ho, in which a lonely cabbie (Wayne Lai) has his life systematically destroyed by a psychotic mainlander (Wu Chien-lin), pretending to be a prostitute, who will stop at nothing to obtain Hong Kong citizenship for her and her husband (Moses Chan), who’s waiting back home. It takes only about ten minutes to feel the political allegory that saturates this film and one soon realizes its message will be delivered with the subtlety of a hammer to the head. I know it didn’t do much business at the box office, perhaps.

I suppose the fear of the mainland was bound to infuse much of Hong Kong cinema until after the handover - and not just the horror films, either - after which it became clear the mainland was a rather toothless tiger and, in fact, was slowly embracing capitalism. Sure, they may have to follow tighter rules, but Hong Kong filmmakers have little choice but to embrace the mainland market if they want to stay viable. Of course, one can’t rule out the power of the Chinese diaspora, either. And thankfully, the low-budget filmmakers are still churning out the wonderfully superstitious horror fare, though I suspect it’s more for the local and international video markets than for the mainland.

The presentation of all this mysticism, as I mentioned before, has often seemed more implicit than explicit, as though the act of simply SHOWING something that would be frightening to the Chinese mindset is more intellectually frightening than the “mechanics” of actually jolting an audience or building suspenseful momentum via well-trod editing techniques and narrative styles that seems to be a mainstay of the form in the U.S.

Thailand: yes, this is the locus of "big magic". Why, I am not really sure. There is a priest in Thailand who is the darling of the movie star/pop star set. They are always flying down there (Eric Tsang is one of the main devotees, and has gotten a lot of others to participate) to get special blessings and so forth. This priest has, BTW, recently predicted that a tsunami-type disaster will hit Hong Kong on the eve of Chinese New Year this year. He's told everyone to stay indoors after 9 PM on that evening (I think 8 February). Watch this space!

What a crock of s**t. If the guy's so good, maybe he could've predicted the Tsunami that hit his own friggin' country!

Isn't Thailand one of those places where ancient rituals and beliefs have thrived to this day and western religions have had made few inroads? A long history of weird beliefs does not make the system any more logical or intuitively sound, but seeing someone so thoroughly convinced of their divine inspiration can be just as convincing to a receptive mind (or a celebrity), even if they openly brush it off so as not to appear weak-willed

The bit about Eric Tsang disheartens but doesn’t surprise me, any more than all the Americans and Canadians who claim to be good Christians, Jews, Muslims or wha have you, but are easily fooled into believing the latest new age “therapies” simply because they APPEAR to have some tradition behind them that may have been hitherto unknown to those being suckered, but which have been endlessly documented as flawed or downright fraudulent almost from day one. Reading and understanding science (whether or not it opposes religious belief, although it often does) requires much more brain power than accepting things on faith...

Oh, I’ll be watching this space alright, as well as all the news sites, ultimately to confirm my suspicions (if what you say is true) that Eric Tsang and his pallies are a bunch of easily-duped fools when it comes to superstitious crap like this. Shame, really, the guy’s an entertainment powerhouse, but then entertainment industries the world over seem to be populated by insecure people with little time to read opposing viewpoints when a simple visit to a shamanistic crazyman will do. And even if the Thai priest’s prophecy comes true, it scientifically proves nothing beyond a lucky guess. Of course, if the Tsunami happens in the next year, he’ll still say he was right, but that his god was using a scratchy connection or something. For the record, I’m predicting it will happen the second Wednesday after his prediction! Let’s see who’s right.

By the way, Odresel, that Fonoroff story is rather creepy. I’ve overheard conversations like that between Gweilos and their too-young-looking Asian acquaintances many times here in Canada. I used to wonder what such attractive women were doing with these dorks. Then, completely by chance (oooh, how superstitious!), I went and started dating a Canadian-Korean girl (one of a literal handful in my mid-size city) and realized that people probably now think the same thing about me, especially when we’re in Asian communities. Then again, I think this sort of inclusivity is an inevitable result of a mixed culture, and is therefore a fantastic thing. When I visit Toronto these days, I see an increasing number of non-Asian WOMEN dating Asian men, so us young ‘uns are finally starting to knock down what’s left of these silly cultural walls. A few more generations and it should be an interesting culture, once all the old farts and their constipated thinking start shuffling off to meet their invisible beings in the sky....

[dleedlee]

I once tried to purchase a whole bunch of these publications from the HKIFF website, but the shipping costs scotched the deal. Many's the time I wished I knew someone who lived in Hong Kong who could buy them and ship them to me for a more reasonable cost.

Agreed, the shipping is ridiculous but the content is just too invaluable for me to pass up. I just bite the bullet and try not to think about it. There packaging is pretty lousy too considering all the s/h fees, too. In the end, I have no regrets... Uh-oh, did I just quote William Hung?

[odresel]

What a crock of s**t. If the guy's so good, maybe he could've predicted the Tsunami that hit his own friggin' country

Well, I didn't say that I believed him. I don't. BTW, Anthony Wong was recently interviewed here, and was asked to comment on the case of a 20-yr old Taiwanese actress, now in HK movies, who was picked up on a drugs charge, and he said, in effect, "What do you expect? We live in a dream world and have almost no education." I am sure this characterization is applicable to the credulity a lot of these actors/pop stars seem to possess. Though I think a lot of them just go with flow and don't really believe all this stuff...But it plays well with the see lai (housewives) in the housing estates here...

story is rather creepy. I’ve overheard conversations like that between Gweilos and their too-young-looking Asian acquaintances many times here in Canada. I used to wonder what such attractive women were doing with these dorks. Then, completely by chance (oooh, how superstitious!), I went and started dating a Canadian-Korean girl (one of a literal handful in my mid-size city) and realized that people probably now think the same thing about me, especially when we’re in Asian communities

Yep, this is the FABDAWG syndrome...Fabulous Asian Babe Dating Average White Guy. Context is everything. Here you would go unoticed.

[Brian Thibodeau]

Anthony Wong was recently interviewed here, and was asked to comment on the case of a 20-yr old Taiwanese actress, now in HK movies, who was picked up on a drugs charge, and he said, in effect, "What do you expect? We live in a dream world and have almost no education." I am sure this characterization is applicable to the credulity a lot of these actors/pop stars seem to possess. Though I think a lot of them just go with flow and don't really believe all this stuff.

I think this is often the case with people in the American entertainment industries as well, and for that matter, people in such industries throughout the world - I think it was author and screenwriter William Goldman who once said (and I'm paraphrasing here, I'm afraid) "Hollywood doesn't turn good people into bad people. It simply attracts bad people to a place where they can continue to be bad." The lack of formal education in these fields is often exactly proportional to the amount of genuine talent on display AND the degree to which many of them pursue strange "belief" systems, but sadder still are the throngs of admirers who believe that the heightened status of these people somehow makes the things they say so much more profound and worthy of emulation. I suspect the lack of education, as you say, makes certain people very susceptible to the ramblings of spirtual guides and quacks.

(I'd be curious to know who that Taiwanese actress is, but I understand the HK gossip rags tend to use "wink-wink" names in describing the naughty antics of celebrities (not sure if that's true all around, but I did read a couple of translated articles to that effect).)

One difference I've noticed in pieces I've read about Hong Kong entertainment history is that it seemed much easier, particularly in the 60's and especially the 70's and early 80's, to get into the Hong Kong industry with good looks and/or average talent, both of which were then molded and tweaked until the person became a star. It also seemed easier partly because the industry doesn't seem to be regarded as an attractive career option to the majority of people (but I could be wrong). I've always had the impression that, due to its size relative to, say, the American or some European industries, auditions were not a high priority in the HK industry. I'm sure there were entry requirements to get in at, say, TVB, but once you were in, it seemed like you would at least be employed on a regular basis and, if the germ of marketability was there, you might even have a long and successful career.

Hollywood, on the other hand, seems to be stuffed to overflowing with pretty, arguably talented people drawn there hoping for some big break, staying there as life passes them by, and ending up unsatisfied and unemployable beyond the service sector. That system has always seemed much harder to crack, yet probably much more attractive to many people thanks to the opportunity for big, big bucks.

Yep, this is the FABDAWG syndrome...Fabulous Asian Babe Dating Average White Guy. Context is everything. Here you would go unoticed.

Good to know.
Of course, I'm far from average...

[dleedlee]

(I'd be curious to know who that Taiwanese actress is, but I understand the HK gossip rags tend to use "wink-wink" names in describing the naughty antics of celebrities (not sure if that's true all around, but I did read a couple of translated articles to that effect).)

I assumed the reference was to Cherrie Ying who was recently arrested for possession of ketamine (I think it was). Don't know if she is Taiwanese or not though.

Hmm, guess she is:
http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2004- ... 189974.htm

[Brian Thibodeau]

Interesting.

I just watched her last night in a good little movie called THE WALL with Jordan Chan and Patrick Tang. She wasn't bad, despite the major dub-job to hide what I'm assuming is a mandarin accent. Oh well, to each his own.

Thanks for the link.

[Brian Thibodeau]

Thought this was an interesting discussion. Bumped it to see if any newer members might have some thoughts on how Asian audiences react to Asian horror films, particularly the more traditional Hong Kong stuff.